Rob Moore:Um, you were born here in Kendrick weren't you?
Lester Crock:September 1st, 1899 I was born here in Kendrick.
RM:Were you born at your own home? Or what?
LC:Born at my own home, yes, I was. And just an old fashioned country doctor made the delivery.
LC:One of the kind that used to have a horse and buggy, you know, and make calls out in the country. The roads at that time of course were all dirt roads and when it rained they were In winter time the snow was so deep that they had trouble getting around. Right here in town I can remember when I was a child, probably, oh before I was a teenager I can remember when the snow was a foot and a half deep right in our front yard. But things have changed now to where some winters, they don't get any snow at all, you know. Having-- being a native here you know that of course. In the summertime the weather of course was hot and dry and dusty and everybody praying for rain and we’d see a big cloud coming up and begin to rejoice thinking we’re gonna get a rainstorm to cool things down a little bit and then first hint of that the wind would come up and first thing you know we’d have a dust storm with no rain mud [laughter] ‘bout how deep. [laughter]
RM:That seems sorta like this year.
LC:Yeah quite a bit quite, quite a bit like this year. Of course in those days a forest fire was, well it seemed to me much more serious than it is now because the present day method of fighting fires is so advanced over to what it was at that time that they can get on them right away and either put them out or corral them to the point where they can’t do too much damage, we hope.
RM:How did they handle fires in the early days?
LC:Well, they had stations around in the forest you know, ranger stations and smoke chasers. What they call smoke chasers would be on the lookout up on top of the mountain, like they are somewhat like they are today. And of course the only way of reporting a fire at that time was by phone and then the only way to get to the fire was by saddle horse and-- to the fire I mean was by saddle horse and backsteam. Backstream to take the equipment and saddle horse to take the men out on the fire. Of course there were lots of big fires where in a number of cases there were lives lost, you know, in the fire.
RM:Hm. Did you do much fire fighting?
LC:I never did do any fire fighting on the big fire. I just did the small fire we’ve had here in the canyons right here around close to town. I went out a few times, but-- The biggest fire we had here was about 19, it was in the 30’s, 1930’s, early 30’s and we didn’t happen to be at home at the time. We were over at Orofino, visiting some friends, and our parents called up and told us not to try to come back over the hill because the road was-- came right through the fire, you see. So we went back down through by Arrow and came back up the canyon. When we got here, why everything was smoke and fire on both sides of the canyon except the south hill over here didn’t burn where the timber is, south of town. But both of the Bear Creek Canyons, Little and Big Bear and Potlatch Canyon. And the fire ran, and also the area up toward Cameron, you know where [it all burned in the fire?].
RM:Was it mostly a ground brush type fire or what?
LC:It was started by a train up in Little Bear Canyon on the railroad.
RM:It was a logging train wasn’t it? Or is that uh?
LC:I don’t remember now just what-- It may have been but I’m not sure. I don’t think it was because there wasn't much-- at that time there weren't many logs hauled through here. They mostly went to small mills around in the country and they hauled logs with the heavy horses and sawed them right there, you know. And the lumber was hauled to town with the-- on heavy lumber wagons with 4 or 6 horse teams, you know.
RM:Where did that railroad there in Little Bear run?
RM:Where did that railroad the one in Little Bear go to?
LC:I mean Little Bear Creek is the present road, just as it is right now. Present Northern Pacific Railway.
LC:Right up Little Bear Canyon to Troy and Moscow, Spokane.
RM:You were here then when the 1904 fire had came through.
LC:I was here, but I was too young to remember anything about it. Although I do, it seems to me that I can remember seeing some-- there were some explosions in the fire. And it seems to me that I either remember seeing or remember hearing them tell about chunks of charred wood and stuff that was flying through the air, you know, from the explosions. But being just a real small child, why I couldn't verify the fact that I actually saw those things.
RM:[Laughs] Well your house wasn't caught up in that fire was it?
LC:No no, it just went the [middle?] section down there and, you know, down on the flat, down toward [unclear].
RM:What did folks do for business after that?
LC:Well, they set up a bunch of tents and tried to go ahead with business. And it was just a short time until they were on the road to building new stores. And instead of the old frame buildings, why they built mostly brick buildings. And a good many of those are still standings. For instance that Temple building down there, the Lodge Hall and Temple building was built in 1912, I believe or 19-- maybe even earlier than that. But there’s a-- the date is on the front of the building. I may be confusing that with the first brick school building that was built here, was built in 1912. Course when I started school in 1907 and the school I went to, of course, was what they called a primary school and that was down on the far end of town where that-- Where the saddle clubs have their fenced in area over there known for their [Jim cans?]. I have a picture in here of the inside of that school building, but the picture was taken, I think in 1904, 1905. Just before I started at school and I can't Identify the people in it, the kids.
RM:Well how long did you go to that school?
LC:Just one year. And then they made other arrangements and they did away with that school and made room for them up here on hill. Of course that was a frame building too. That building stood right on the brow of the hill where it breaks off right down over that bluff, you know. But right up here and down over to that bluff, up where you can look out and see where that new school house is now. And I went to school there until 1912 when the brick building was built across the street, over the other side there. How long have you been here?
RM:I've been here about two years.
LC:Just two years. Well you don't remember the old building then, it was torn down. The gymnasium building is still up there, on the hill. And that was sold to the VFW, and they use it for their get togethers and different functions that they have.
RM:But it was a one room school house when you attended it?
LC:The the one down-- the primary school down on the lower part of town was just a one room building. I'll get the picture just to give you an idea, if I can find it.
RM:Um, when you were a kid you were pretty interested in fishing and hunting?
LC:Oh yes. My dad started me on when I was-- soon as I was able to walk. He was always a hunter and fisherman. And he was very particular about training us to respect the danger of firearms and taught us how handle and taught us to never point a gun at anything unless we wanted to kill it. Of course, in those days they, they were-- there was lots more game than there is at the present time, particularly birds and deer. But they-- I think as a result of some of the big fires, the elk and deer both increased in some areas because after those fires the timber, you know, being killed then the brush comes on. Of course that's the natural browse for the wild game, for the big game. And it increased up until the 40’s and 50’s, well we had more game than ever before. But now it's-- Well, I don't believe there's one animal now to where there were a dozen back then, in that period. So when we go hunting in the fall now we just-- it’s just a chance whether we get any meat or not.
RM:Was your family pretty dependent on the hunting when you were first here?
LC:Well, not really dependent on it, but then it was a nice thing to be able to have that meat for our family when, you know, when it was kind of hard to get meat any other way. And it was quite a saving, really, because well the equipment to, you know, guns and fishing tackle and all that sort of thing, in those days were cheap and it didn't cost anything like it does now to follow that-- What shall I call it? It isn’t a habit, and it isn’t a business, it’s a pleasure I guess, a recreation, a form of recreation. At the same time why we hunted-- we were meat hunters and not trophy hunters. And I, myself, almost raised our family family on wild meat. And that was not like some people that I know of that may have raised their family on wild meat, but they didn't always get that meat legally, but we got it legally.
RM:Well, was the fishing here better back--?
LC:Oh much better. Fishing was much better in those early years of this century. And at the present time it’s almost a thing of the past in this particular area.
RM:Was there more water here than or what? What is causing decline? Do you have any idea?
LC:There are a number of things. Of course, I suppose the fishing pressure has something to do with it. But the thing that I believe that has contributed to the fact that there is so little fishing anymore in the area is that the headwaters of the stream up where they originate has mostly all been logged off and there’s nothing to hold back the moisture. In the spring, or late winter, when the snow is going off it, why it just goes off with a rush and the streams get high and flood the areas below. And then in the summertime when it begins to get warm, well they dry up and there’s no place for them, they just-- trouts, ya know, just can't live in warm water. And I think that probably is the main thing that has caused the decline in fish population. On the other hand, so far as big game is concerned, sometimes that logging helps, because they thin out the timber and there’s more brush that grows there to browse on. They just-- We lose the fish and maybe gain a little wild game.
RM:Would you used to go out fishing pretty often?
LC:Every chance I got. I always enjoyed fishing. Of course when I was just a youngster growing up there was no limit-- no bag limit at all on fish. These streams were live with little panfish you know small trout. Then in the spring of the year, of course, when the steelhead run was on-- actually the trout that we catch out of these streams are just young steelhead. Or rather, actually they are ocean going rainbows because when they become a certain age why they migrate downstream and eventually wind up in the ocean. And then when they’re proper age to spawn, well then they come back up to the place they were spawned. And of course smaller fish come back too quite a bit. Well you know the steelhead is classified as a trout when it’s under 20in long. Over that, it's a steelhead or an ocean going rainbow. So if you go out fishing for steelhead and you catch one under 20in long, why-- 20in or under, and the trout season is still open then you can bag it as a trout and over that it’ll be a steelhead.
RM:When you fished around here would you mostly fish the little feeder creeks that come into the river or what?
LC:Well this Potlatch Creek and all the branches, even the small feeder streams in those days were alive with small trout. I say they were alive with small trout, they also had larger trout too. Many times I can remember my dad telling about, well when I was a child he took my sister and I up in the park area. You know, where park is? You know where park is? [Cough] There was a road that went down along the Potlatch and there used to be an old prospect down and they call it. I had it right on the tip of my tongue but I can't think of the name of it, it was a mine. I can't think what the name of it was now, but anyhow it never developed because they never found anything worth while.
But anyhow this road went down across to Potlatch and came back on the Texas Ridge side and he took a team and took the family down there and camp for 3 or 4 days. He told me many times about the fish they caught way up, you know, 17, 18 inches trout. Of course some times of year you can't do that because the rainbow are extremely migratory fish, they move around a lot. Seen the time when I can go up and catch a nice bag of good size trout, rainbow trout. Maybe everything from 10 inches up to 14, and you lose a lot of them too and think well I'll go back next week and maybe have another good basketful, and go back next week and never see one because they've gone down stream, see.
RM:Your father's main occupation was a blacksmith?
LC:He was a blacksmith, yes. He came west in 1892. That’s my father.
LC:In 1892, he came as a carriage maker and carriage painter. And he went to work in a blacksmith shop that was owned by a man by the name Lester Carmine [spelling] C-A-R-M-I-N-E, I believe. He went to work for him as a carriage maker and repairer of vehicles and gradually worked into the blacksmithing business, horseshoeing, tire setting and all that sort of thing. He wasn't a large man but I seen him handle horses that you would just get the hind foot up and they'd just lay over on him and he was carrying about a fourth of that horse while he was showing us. [Laughs] He retired, oh I think he must have been in his 70’s when he retired from the blacksmith shop and then started a little gun shop at our home down there. And then later after a few years he, well his health got so he couldn't do much of anything and he gave that up.
RM:Was it pretty hard to continue the blacksmith trade after-- at the advent of cars?
LC:No, I didn't quite get the question.
RM:Oh. Was it very hard for him to continue in the blacksmith trade after the automobile came in?
LC:Oh yeah, of course when automobiles and trucks and all those came into use, why so many of the heavy horses and also the light driving horses just disappeared. Naturally, because people started running gasoline instead of [hay runners?]. It kind of fizzled out. But now in some areas there are so many saddle horses and not so many saddle clubs that there’s quite a demand for horseshoers, so things have really changed.
RM:Did you ever work with your dad in the blacksmith shop?
LC:I worked with him some, just to-- in the summertime, you know, during vacation from school. I helped him a good deal in wagon work, tire setting, other repair jobs. You know they had breakdowns with wagons like they have breakdowns with cars. Maybe a team would run away and smash things up. [You'd have to get some sort of repair work done?].
RM:Were runaways pretty common occurrence?
LC:Oh yeah, I can remember lots of them. I’ve been in a couple of them.
RM:When you were driving?
LC:No, when I was just a youngster. Why I can remember, one of my uncles was in town with a team and he went into the store and left me in the wagon. Something scared the team and they took off up the street. [Boy do I tell ya?] the dust was flying and I was hanging on. Somebody rushed out and got ahold of the bridal reigns, and after a little tussle I got them stopped.
RM:What about the, you know, there being more water and everything there, were the seasons also different? Have the seasons changed or anything the weather seasons?
LC:Well, mostly the fact that we don't have the snowfall we used to have. I think we have generally, except for an off year like this, I believe we have as much rainfall as much moisture over a year, probably, as we ever did. But that snow fall in the winter time makes a lot of difference. If we, you know, if we don't have the snow fall the-- what snow we do have goes off with a rush and it doesn't go into the ground like it should. You know deep snow, why it kind of melts from the top, you know, and goes down and a lot of that goes into the ground.
RM:Did the-- when the ground was snowy and the winter season was on and the kids didn't have too much to do, I wouldn't think, what kind of stuff would they do for entertainment?
LC:When there was snow out?
RM:When winter was here. Yeah.
LC:In those days, when I was a youngster growing up here, I think I spent most of my leisure time when we weren't in school in the winter time, sleighing, I mean coasting, and skating. Because the streams froze up, and there were times when you could start down at the lower end of town here and you could skate clear up this river here, oh, for several miles. Except for some places in the rapids where you had to kind of work around, and then there’d be a long still [goula?] there’d be just wonderful skating below the rapids. We used to do that sometimes just, you know, just to get up the river a ways.
And then another thing, there were quite a number of deep pools right close to town here that froze over in the winter time, and I know that there were times when the ice would be a foot thick. During those times, of course, those days before the days of refrigerators and freezers and all that sort of thing, why people made a business of going out and cutting ice and storing it away in what we call Ice houses, in sawdust, you know, to-- you’d stack it in there with sawdust in between the tiers and stuff would last all summer, you know.. Some of the bottom of the pile would still be there in the fall. And then people would buy ice from the people that were in that business and have a cooler drink on a hot summer day.
RM:When people bought the ice themselves would they have a little icehouse like a miniature icehouse themselves?
LC:No, they usually had some way to keep it for a day or two, you know, and they would get what they needed at a time. You could buy whatever amount you want they just take an ice pick and just cut off what you want. Cover the other piece up and leave it there ‘til somebody else come in and wanted ice. Of course, the only way we could have ice cream those days in the summertime was to get a big chunk of ice and put it in the gunny sack and pound it up. Make crushed ice out of it and turn the crank on the freezer, pour the ice around the container, and add a little rock salt to it and turn the crank until it began to get so stiff you couldn't turn it anymore, and then it was time to start eating icecream.
RM:Uh huh, right we still do that sometimes, and that's-- I can't say that's the only way we eat ice cream. But we do use that way.
LC:But that was a lot better wasn't it? A lot better than the kind you buy.
RM:Mmhmm. When you go on the fishing trips, or skating trips, or hunting trips, or whatever, Would you go out and camp out for a few days and make a long trip of it or just go out for afternoons?
LC:Wel, we used to when we went fishing, we'd go out and stay for a few days. In fact, when I was a kid some of my chums and I would often times take our bicycles as far as we could ride them up this crick and then when we came to place where the road left the crick and went up on top of the ridge, well we’d stash the bicycles in the brush and take our packs on our back and hike up the crick a ways, fix us a lean-too.
LC:Well, the Potlatch crick I'm talking about. Fix us a lean-too and you know in case of rain or anything. Just cut some poles and spread [baws?] over them. Spread [baws?] over them to shed water off if it rained and then cut some more [baws?] to put under our beds, and probably just have a blanket sleep in our clothes. [Laughs]
RM:Did you ever have to use, like smoked fish and stuff to bring it back down and use later?
LC:No, when we went up that day we would just eat what we caught just right there. Then sometimes later when we went way back and took a team and packed back in, well we'd caught more fish than we can use and we'd take a lot of salt with us when we went, figuring if we'd got any weed salt them and bring them back. But that never did work out to well for me because I never did like salt fish and they just aren't so good anymore after you keep them for a few days even if they are salted. In fact, I don't like these trout we catch now after they are so old I don't want them at all. I'd rather have them while they're real fresh, or fresh enough that they kind of curl up in the pan on the stove, then they're good.
RM:You told me last time we talked something about the time when you were a rural mail carrier out here.
LC:Oh yes, I carried the mail from, for about, let me see, 21 to-- about five years. On American Ridge, at that time they called it Route Number One. Then there was another Route Number Two, that went up into all the Bear Ridge area toward Deary and up that way. But later, after I gave up the mail job, they kind of combined the two. And at the same time they improved the roads and changed the route so they could use automobiles the year round. You know, when I was carrying it the roads were some of them were gravel some of them were still just dirt roads. And the snow got so deep lots of times that I couldn't get around with a team.
But now since they use motorized equipment the highway districts get out there early and plow the roads so they can get around. In those days they didn't have the equipment to clean the roads out that way. Of course, it wasn't really that necessary, unless the roads were completely blocked with too much snow. Why they used sleighs-- sleds anyhow. And if the teams could wallow through it a few times then the road was kind of broken so you could get over it alright. I did have a few little accidents, I never had a runaway, but I had a couple experiences with drifted snow where we had to drive the team up around through somebody’s field because it cut through over a ridge the [cut?] would be filled with snow and you couldn't tell where the road was anyhow. And maybe when you try to get back up on the road, why one of the horses would slip over the edge and then they'd both be down and the rig was half way tipped over. I had to get the scoop shovel busy and shovel out a lot of snow before I could get the team or rig up on the-- get it right again so I could go.
RM:The whole time you were carrying the mail you were using a team in the winter?
RM:How about in the times inbetween.
LC:Well, in the summertime, well I put the team out in pasture right because some of these close places up here on the bench close to town, well if I did need them I could go out and get them. Get up early in the morning and go out and catch my team. Bring them in hook up and go to the post office.
RM:What would you need them for in the summer?
LC:Well, if we had a storm or heavy rain the roads would get so muddy that I couldn't get around with the car, so I’d have to catch the team up.
RM:Did you usually manage to get through most of the time?
RM:Did you usually manage to get through most of the time?
LC:Oh yeah, most of the time. There were a few times I didn't make it clear around. But within a day or so it would be opened up so I could get around.
RM:How was it climbing those ridges in bad weather?
RM:It was a pretty hard pull climbing those ridges wasn't it?
LC:Oh yeah, yeah it is, it was then, especially if it was muddy. And of course if you want to shut this thing off I'll go and get you pictures.